The Midnight Palace

Casey LaLonde is the grandson of Hollywood legend Joan Crawford. Having written the forewords for both "Joan Crawford: Her Life in Letters" and the upcoming "Joan Crawford: An Illustrated Filmography", Casey is working to restore his grandmother's good name and reputation. In the past years, there have been some negative stigmas attached to Ms. Crawford, most of which stem from her daughter Christina's book (and eventual movie) "Mommie Dearest". For those familiar with the book or movie, it's a slap in the face to a woman that has inspired, and continues to inspire many people. But to Joan Crawford's dedicated fans, it's a sad portrayal and an untrue representation. I recently had the chance to sit down with Casey and talk with him about his grandmother's legacy, her contributions, and setting the record straight about the allegations. You can click play on the player below to hear the audio from the interview, as well as read the transcription.

MP: I?m with Casey LaLonde, grandson of legendary actress Joan Crawford. Casey, thanks very much for taking the time out to speak with me.

Casey: It?s my pleasure to be here, thank you.

MP: Your grandmother adopted four children. She had Christopher, Cindy, Cathy and Christina. Whose son are you?

Casey: I?m Cathy?s son. She?s the twin with Cindy, and they?re about eight years younger than Christina, and about five or six years younger than Christopher. So they were the second set of children.

MP: You visited your grandmother in New York, in her apartment in New York. What are your best memories from going there?

Casey: We used to go up at least once a month when I was a kid. She passed away when I was about five years old, in 1977. I vividly remember driving into the city, and just anticipating getting to her apartment, which was on East 69th Street at the Imperial House apartment building, which is still there today. She was in Apt. 22G I believe. My most vivid memories are, she would greet us at the door, and she would take my sister and I, we were tiny kids, into the kitchen directly because it was usually lunch time. So she would sit us down at the table, and she would pull out some leftovers for lunch. My favorite thing to eat was leftover roast chicken, with a little bit of mayonnaise on the side, just to dip, for the chicken. She?d always have a little tiny knick-knack for us, a little gift, and I still have most of those little gifts at home that I just cherish. At the end of her life she was getting a little frail because she had Cancer, right at the end, so she was always kind of frail. She was only just over five feet tall, so she was a tiny woman. Of course, I was five so I was little myself. But she was very thin, very frail, usually had a wig on, but always made up, very pretty, and she would greet us in her house coat. She was just at home, very relaxed, and she would take us in. I remember looking out the windows, we were on the 22nd floor of a high rise in Manhattan, so we could see the cityscape. It was just fantastic. My parents would usually go out for lunch, or if we got there later, go out for dinner, and she would just baby-sit us. It was just like anybody?s grandmother, it was just fantastic, except she was classic Hollywood actress Joan Crawford.

MP: Did you have any idea at the time, who you were actually visiting, besides just grandmom?

Casey: I did, but I didn?t realize the extent of her, until late childhood, early teens, I didn?t realize that she had done over eighty movies over four or five decades, or just the impact she had on Hollywood.

MP: When was the first time you saw her on-screen, in a movie?

Casey: The first time I saw her, we lived just north of Allentown, PA. We used to get two New York stations, WWOR and WPIX from New York. I grew up with those stations; it was my link to the city as a kid and even into teenage years. It was either on one of those two stations or one of the PBS stations ran ?Rain? from 1932, where she played the prostitute. Fantastic movie, underrated for what it was and I?ve watched in many times since. That was the first time I remember seeing her movie because they didn?t show a lot of Joan movies, it was either ?Mildred Pierce? or ?Rain?. ?Rain? was not under copyright, it?s kind of an orphaned movie, so anybody can show it. So that was usually shown; and then ?Mildred Pierce? (was shown), because of her Oscar. I don?t remember seeing ?Mildred Pierce? until I was just a little bit older, maybe six or seven years old. But I remember seeing ?Rain? probably when I was like four or five years old. My mom would say ?Hey, your grandmother?s on TV? and I?m like ?Wow! That?s great!? Then we?d sit down and watch the movie, and that was the first Joan movie I?d ever seen.

MP: She started out as a dancer. She had a lot of trophies for doing the Charleston. When she filmed ?The Hollywood Revue of 1929?, her tap dancing was the first time that tap dancing was heard audibly on screen. Wouldn?t you say that kind of set the stage for her to be a trend-setter in Hollywood?

Casey: Absolutely. She was the first actress to appear with Fred Astaire on screen. She was a leader in Hollywood, for any number of things. But to have the first audible tap dancing on screen, to some people it doesn?t mean a lot, to me it?s huge. It?s absolutely huge.

MP: She had a little bit of a hard time getting the leading roles in the beginning, especially because of Norma Shearer. I think she (Joan) had a little bit of resentment towards her (Norma), because as she said, how can I possibly get these roles when Norma Shearer is basically, a little bit ?closer? to the boss than I am.

Casey: That?s right. She was married to Irving Thalberg, and she was getting all the juicy roles. I would consider my grandmother?s feud; it wasn?t a feud, but her competition with Norma Shearer to be more of a competition/feud than with Bette Davis. That was more of a personal thing, but Norma Shearer, it was direct competition for juicy job roles. Even in ?The Women?, Norma Shearer played the good wife, who?s trying to get her husband back after my grandmother stole the husband. You could see that power struggle there, because Norma had top billing, my grandmother played the bad woman, and you could see that competition there. But, I?ve seen some really neat photos of Norma and my grandmother later in years, into the fifties, and they were just delightful together, just friendly.

MP: Good friends after the competition is over.

Casey: That?s right, the competition is over, and they?re older, and their careers are on the decline. But you can just see the camaraderie I guess. Its two older ladies still living in Hollywood, and their friendship grew after they became non-competing, for sure.

MP: I know you?ve seen the documentary on Mildred Pierce. I?ve seen the documentary on Mildred Pierce. The documentary is called ?Joan Crawford: The Ultimate Movie Star?. It says a lot I think, because it doesn?t say the ultimate actress, it says the ultimate movie star, period, which basically covers both genders, male and female. What do you think she had that nobody has been able to replicate ever since?

Casey: Well, what I talk about with fans who I meet, Madonna is given credit for reinventing herself every couple of years. A new album comes out and she?s a new persona. My grandmother was doing that in the 20s and 30s. She went from the shop girl to the dance girl. She?d reinvent herself as soon as she saw maybe taste changing in the marketplace. She?d work with the studios to slightly change the way she appeared on screen, the shoulder pads, the eyebrows, and the hair. I think she was a complete package.

MP: She could do it all.

Casey: She could do everything. She could dance, she could sing, she could act like nobody?s business and then she did all the radio and the TV later. You talk about a multi-threat in sports; she was a multi-threat in Hollywood for sure.

MP: Right before she did ?Mildred Pierce?, she had a series of less-than-stellar movies for MGM. She wasn?t getting the scripts she wanted to get, and then she comes out with ?Mildred Pierce? and she wins an Academy Award. So would think that after a performance like that, she would continue on the upswing again, but it seemed like they started giving her less-than-stellar scripts again right after ?Mildred Pierce?. Why do you think that happened?

Casey: I don?t know. Her work in the late 30s, early 40s at MGM, the scripts were horrible. They just weren?t what they should have been. So, her contract was up at MGM and she quietly left the studio. There was no party, she said goodbye to the people she wanted to, and she drove off the set. Now mind you, she already had a contract in the works with Warner Brothers, because she was still a major draw. Then she made ?Mildred Pierce?, she made ?Humoresque?, ?Possessed?, which I think are the finest three movies that she did right in a row. Her Warner Brothers work, especially those three movies, is just fantastic. Not that they?re overlooked, because obviously ?Mildred Pierce?, she won an Oscar for it, but just the quality of those three films is just superb. But then she started to get into the 1950s, ?The Damned Don?t Cry?, ?Queen Bee?, all those movies, they?re fun to watch, but they still weren?t the quality, and then you get into the 60s and forget it?the ?Straight Jackets? and the ?Trogs?, which was her last horrible film. I just think it might be almost indicative of the decline of Hollywood, because you did have some really good films in the 50s and 60s, but it was definitely moving away from the classics, like ?Sullivan?s Travels?, Joel McCrae, you know, it was just moving away from that into more slightly lower budget, not as creative, less input, the studio system was declining. So there wasn?t the tight control over the scripts and the screenwriters just weren?t producing what they should?ve been at the time.

MP: Her rivalry with Bette Davis is pretty well known. Do you think it was as severe as people believed it was?

Casey: I don?t think it was. I think it?s more myth-making than anything else. I know they did fight, but I don?t think it was of the proportions that people have made it into over the years.

MP: Do you think they would like to believe it was worse than it was?

Casey: Oh yeah, absolutely. I guess one item that does point to, or give some credence to it is the case of the 1962 Academy Award/Oscar show, where Anne Bancroft won for ?The Miracle Worker?.

MP: And she went on stage?

Casey: That?s correct. Bette Davis was nominated; my grandmother wasn?t for ?What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?. I think she should?ve been nominated. If Bette Davis was nominated, my grandmother should?ve been nominated. But Bette Davis was nominated and my grandmother worked out very friendly terms with the other four actresses nominated, that, if they weren?t able to appear because they were working on a movie somewhere, she?d graciously accept their award for them. Anne Bancroft won instead of Bette Davis. Bette probably should?ve won. So my grandmother accepted the award for Anne Bancroft because she was, I think, overseas or on Broadway at the time, and she couldn?t attend the presentation. So my grandmother went up to Bette Davis and accepted her award, and got on stage when Bette Davis should?ve been up there. So that adds fuel to the fire, and Bette Davis has, on several occasions, mentioned that as one of the key items of their feud. But, there was a recent TCM documentary about Bette Davis. There was nothing about my grandmother in it, and it spanned her entire career. Bette Davis was so busy with her family and her own career that I don?t know how she would?ve found time to have a feud with anybody. So I think it?s been overblown. There are so many different aspects of my grandmother?s career you could just do books on by itself. ?The Divine Feud? of course was written many years ago. But I think a fresh look at that entire issue could be taken a look at maybe in conjunction with a look at Norma Shearer?s competition with my grandmother, as a comparison for sure.

MP: If they weren?t both actresses, Bette Davis and your grandmother, do you think they could?ve been friends?

Casey: Oh yeah, I think so. They were both very driven women, perfectionists. But I think they could?ve seen some similarities between each other. And if they weren?t directly competing for roles, and for audience, and for some respects, men, I think they could?ve easily been friends.

MP: Your grandmother?s career has spanned over so many decades, from the 20s, basically to the 70s. When you go over her body of work, can you get an idea of what was her happiest time, or her most comfortable time making films?

Casey: I think her time working with Clark Gable, the love of her life, never married; they had an affair for decades. They were great friends. I think her work with him in the 30s like ?Possessed?, and I don?t particularly love the film, but ?Strange Cargo?, it?s a little odd, but I think her work with him?I think she was very satisfied, very fiery that they were working together. Like I said before, I think the other time that she was really satisfied was the work with Warner Brothers, the ?Possessed?, ?Mildred Pierce? obviously, and ?Humoresque?. I think she accepted that she was getting older, and she could accept these older female leading roles without trying to be the shop girl or the 20-year-old ingénue, it just doesn?t work. But she did such a magnificent job in those three movies that I think she accepted where she was. She was still in the prime of her career and she was making money for her family, she was supporting her family and she had just won an Oscar for ?Mildred Pierce?.

MP: As much work as she?s done, because she has done radio, she?s done television and she?s done film?but most people are familiar with ?Mommie Dearest?, which was a book written by your aunt Christina and eventually turned into a movie with Faye Dunaway. In your opinion, how much of that is actually true, or, do you think that it was just blown out of proportion as sort of like a revenge on Christina?s part?

Casey: I?ve been very careful never to call my aunt Christina a liar. I don?t ever remember meeting her, ever, in my life. I think her relationship with my mother was strained toward the end of my grandmother?s life. She lives out west, she wasn?t around. There was never an opportunity to interact with her. I would make the leap that I think she was jealous, a little spiteful, of her mother?s success, because Christina wanted to be an actress too. I read that my grandmother had actually asked Christina to change her last name, just to set herself apart and not get roles because you?re Joan Crawford?s daughter. Christina refused; she knew she could get roles because of that reason. I guess the worst thing in my mind is that Christina waited until my grandmother was dead to publish the book. But that is the key reason why Christina and Christopher were written out of the will?because my grandmother got wind that she was writing a nasty tell-all book, and she wiped them out of the will. That?s the primary reason; she was completely betrayed by her son and daughter.

MP: So she got wind beforehand, and as it said in the movie: ?..for reasons that are well known to them.?

Casey: Yes that is correct. So that was the reason why they were tossed from the will, but they probated the will and they got $21,000 or $25,000 a piece, and back in ?77, ?78, that was still a lot of money. So they still got a part of her estate anyway, but if you hated your mother so much, why would you even probate the will? Why would you even do anything about it?

MP: Why wouldn?t you just want a complete separation?

Casey: Right. Why would you continue to essentially live off your mother?s name? To this day, Christina still has her website, she still sells her books. Why would you even want to continue that relationship if she was such a monster?

MP: Your mother Cathy and her sister Cindy, were not portrayed in ?Mommie Dearest? at all. Is there a reason they weren?t in there?

Casey: Certainly. My mother has told me on many occasions that if she or Cindy were portrayed in any way, even mentioned in the book or the movie; they would?ve sued to stop it. Because nothing, according to them, in the book or the movie, was truthful. So they wouldn?t have allowed their likenesses to be used in the film at all, because it didn?t portray what they experienced as kids. There were many parts in the book and in the movie where my mother and aunt would?ve been around, because they were just eight years younger, it?s not an eternity, it?s not like there was twenty years difference, so they would?ve been around for key portions of the book and the movie, and they?re just not shown because of that reason, they just would?ve been stopped cold.

MP: If they would?ve come out and sued her, they would?ve naturally refuted everything that was in there, and it would?ve basically taken the legs out from under the story.

Casey: Absolutely. They would?ve sued to stop the production of the book and stop production of the movie, which would?ve knocked the legs out from under both of the projects.

MP: Your grandmother actually held Faye Dunaway in high regard as an actress. I would probably assume that Dunaway knew about that. Why do you think she would agree to play her in a role that made her look that bad?

Casey: Well, I read a quote from my grandmother that she probably made after ?Bonnie and Clyde? came out, because Faye Dunaway was fantastic in ?Bonnie and Clyde?, that my grandmother would like Faye Dunaway to play her if they ever made a movie about her.

MP: Not thinking it was going to be that kind of movie...

Casey: Of course not, and that?s the ultimate compliment for an actor, to play someone of my grandmother?s stature. I think, personally, it ruined Faye Dunaway?s career. There?s been a few cases like ?Albino Alligator? and some other movies that Faye Dunaway has been very good in but her career just hit the skids after that, because Hollywood just reeled from the horrible portrayal she did of my grandmother. I think Faye Dunaway probably ultimately regrets doing the role. Nothing like that had ever been done before, such a hatchet job on an actress or anybody in public.

MP: She had to know ahead of time because she must?ve read the script.

Casey: Definitely, and she accepted the script. Without her over-the-top acting, if it would?ve been played more even-keeled, but it couldn?t have been because that?s the way the movie was written. So Faye did a good job portraying this crazy, out of control person, but it wasn?t truthful. If it would?ve been named Madame X or something like that, sure, but it was about a certain person, and it just ruined her career.

MP: It seems like sort of like an on-going trend for the children of Hollywood?s elite to come out with something after the fact. Bette Davis? daughter wrote ?My Mother?s Keeper?, Bing Crosby?s son wrote ?Going My Own Way?, and then your aunt Christina wrote ?Mommie Dearest?. Do you think those kind of books are just driven by profit, just trying to make profits?

Casey: Yeah, I mean other than the profit motive, if you did have a bad relationship with your family or your mother or father, there are other ways to express it other than coming out with a tell-all book, and exposing your life and their life. You see a psychologist, you get medicated, whatever.

MP: But going to a psychologist and all that does not generate money.

Casey: It doesn?t generate any cash; it?s either book sales or movie sales by any means. So I guess it takes a certain person to be vindictive enough to want to write a public memoir, a public tell-all about your own family. I wouldn?t say ?normal? people, but normal people just don?t do that. They take care of it on their own, they keep it quiet, not that abuse or anything like that should be kept quiet, but it shouldn?t be made public in such a spectacle and a money-making venture.

MP: It?s not everybody?s business.

Casey: No, that?s right.

MP: Your grandmother didn?t really know her own father, but she did see him once when she was filming ?Chained? in ?34. She saw him on the set and after she saw him on the set, she didn?t see him again. If that kind of built her or made her into the kind of woman who would become self-sufficient, because she realized she couldn?t really rely on people, couldn?t really trust too many people, if she decided to build herself because of that, don?t you think that she should be looked at more as a role model than as somebody who would be scrutinized for maybe being too overbearing?

Casey: Yes, I couldn?t agree more. She is the epitome of pulling yourself up by your boot straps. She came from nothing. She was the most dedicated, hard-working actress in Hollywood. She would wake up early, stay late. To her credit, again, she reinvented herself constantly. She sought out scripts; she just didn?t wait for them to fall in her lap. She fought for roles. I think she should be admired for her work ethic, for her dedication to Hollywood, the positive way she treated all her fans, the millions of fan letters she sent out in her lifetime?

MP: She personally responded to all her fan letters.

Casey: Absolutely, all the publicity photos she would send out and hand-sign, there are just millions of them out on Ebay because she just flooded the market. She had life-long correspondence relationships with many fans and she certainly kept in touch with her family on a weekly basis, I know that. So I think she should be admired for her work ethic and her dedication to her family and her job by all means.

MP: One of the goals, one of the aspirations you have is to sort of rebuild the reputation that was damaged by ?Mommie Dearest?. You want people to understand how vast and how diverse of a body of work your grandmother actually had. When did you decide, and why did you decide this is something you had to do?

Casey: I?m 34 now. My first trip to Los Angeles, surprisingly, a lot of people get surprised by this, was in 2004. It?d taken almost 30 years of my life before I?d even ventured back to where my grandmother lived for decades and where my mother lived for decades. I finally realized that the Hollywood history that I have in my family is so important, not only to me, but to the millions of fans around the world that still love her, that I?m the only person in the family who?s left who wants to come out in public and talk about her in a positive way.

MP: And without anybody to do that, the only side to be told is the negative side.

Casey: That?s correct. You have the 30 year old broken record of ?Mommie Dearest?, Christina Crawford?s story, and nothing else. There?s nothing else out there. So that is my mission, my quest, whatever you want to call it, to refocus the lens on the positive aspects of her life, and her vast body of work, film, radio and television.

MP: If you grandmother was still here, now that you?re a little bit older, how do you think you would interact with her now?

Casey: Well, the biggest regret of my short life is I didn?t, and it?s very personal, almost selfish, that I didn?t get to spend enough time with her. Growing up without her, I never knew she was married several times. I would?ve loved to have met all of her husbands, Franchot Tone, everybody. Al Steele died in ?59; he died 13 years before I was born. I would give anything to have an hour, as an adult, with my grandmother, because I would just run at the mouth and have so many questions for her. There?s so much Hollywood history that?s being lost because our older generation is just dying off, and just to know what Clark Gable was like in person, you know, what was Franchot Tone like? Just those silly kind of fan questions, but then how did she find it in herself to pull herself out of her desperate situation and become Hollywood legend? Any kind of questions like that for sure.

MP: If you could speak to everybody at once who still believes the negative side, and what has been told in the book and in the movie, as far as some of the more infamous scenes in ?Mommie Dearest?, if you could speak to everybody at once, what would you like to say to them personally to make them understand that you can?t always believe what you read and what you see on television?

Casey: I would have to say that the images portrayed in the book, and especially the movie, were exaggerations at the least, and almost exploitation on another level. The subject of the movie and the book had been dead for several years and there was no one to defend, and no one to bring out the truth about what happened. Like I said, I would never call my aunt Christina a liar, but she was out to sell books, the movie was out to sell movie tickets. The filmmakers and she as author would do anything to sell five extra books, or five extra tickets. So, they made it the most campy, over-the-top book and movie that you could imagine. I would suggest strongly that it was just overblown, exaggerated, I wouldn?t go as far as to say nonsense but I think there may be a kernel of truth here and there, but it?s so overdone, that people need to look past the very singular aspect of my grandmother as a child abuser, whatever, and look at her entire life, and just look past Christina, for once, and just not believe everything she says.

MP: We?re here with Casey LaLonde, grandson of legendary Joan Crawford, an actress who nobody has duplicated, nobody will ever duplicate, and I really appreciate you taking the time again Casey to sit and talk with me, and setting the record straight about a few things that really need to be set straight, and understand that your grandmother was a Hollywood legend and focus on that as you said, and appreciate her for who she was and the body of work and what she contributed to what has become timeless. So thanks again!

Casey: Great, thank you very much for having me.

I would like to extend my sincere appreciation to Casey LaLonde for taking time out to speak with me. I'd also like to remind everyone that controversy sells, and with that in mind, someone is always looking to benefit from it. Please remember that Joan Crawford is an icon, with a list of credits that is undeniable. Again, the upcoming book "Joan Crawford: An Illustrated Filmography", written by Michelle Vogel and Neil Maciejewski, with a foreword by Casey LaLonde, will be out soon, so please pick up a copy!